Mineral Cache Visibility

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8 years 9 months ago #445 by Havoc
Mineral Cache Visibility was created by Havoc
I'm not 100% sure about this one, so opinions are appreciated!

The Mineral Cache model IS three dimensional, but not by much. This allows the caches to be below the terrain and sometimes only findable by agent missions.

There are a few ways to look at this issue:
(1) Minerals sites should be easy to find, it's the quantities and concentrations that should be difficult to come by. Solution: make the mineral cache model something that sticks out quite obviously but is still covered by a mining facility model.

(2) Things work well as they are. Right now, agent using players have an advantages over strip miners because they can find every node, while strip mining has its advantages and draw backs as well. Solution: don't change anything.

(3) The whole mineral collection system is a stupid band-aid that worked, kinda, but it needs to be replaced! Minerals could be a fictitious quantity, which you buy from a list on specific planets, or you start with a full mining window without building any mines, or (as is the case with more and more web based games) you build specific buildings to produce different resources. Idk, if you favor (3), brainstorm!

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8 years 9 months ago - 8 years 8 months ago #453 by Trifler
Replied by Trifler on topic Mineral Cache Visibility
I lean towards #3.

I like the idea of having a full Mining Window, but I think it should list the mineral as Unknown and clicking on it would not take you to the location. Simply hovering the mouse cursor over a deposit long enough for the tooltip to display would unlock the name of the mineral in the Mining Window and enable "click to go there" capability for that specific deposit.

1) If Adam can fix the route bug so that routes work 100%, I'd actually prefer to go back to the gathering method at some point. I enjoyed designing harvesters and needing bay doors on the Mining Facilities, Refineries, etc. Designing a more efficient mining system really helped. Or, perhaps enable special mining vehicles that can stop and mine on their own without a Mining Facility. Like the UCS Harvesters in Earth 2150. Currently we have LC Mining Facilities. The traditional gathering method is the ED method. Maybe enable all three methods with pros and cons for each and let the players decide. Maybe they'll even use different methods depending on the planet, terrain, hostile situation, etc.

2) I think if we do away with alloys, as has been discussed, we could keep Refineries interesting by using them to refine specific minerals into various pre-determined resources. Basically, you take a mineral called X and you can refine it into Y (once you discover Y via research). Y is the *only* thing you can refine it into. Maybe some minerals would have two things they could turn into. Some might have none.

3) Another idea I've worked with (although not specifically for BP) is to revise the system to allow for mineral purity. The percentage of purity would be randomly determined by the deposit. A Refinery could be used as a Smelter to separate the impurities out and thus give you a higher quality product. You'll end up with less since you're removing impurities. Perhaps to start with a player's tech would not enable more than 80% purity. Various techs could be added to Specials research to allow for higher purities. Or, my preference would be to expand on Mineral research such that it isn't used just to discover what the mineral is, but also to research improved max purity for each mineral, unlock alloys from #2 above, and possibly other things as well.

I'll use Pig Iron as an example here. Your most basic iron tool or sword is made by digging Iron out of the ground, melting it down, and forging it. However, it's brittle. Take Iron ore, smelt it and remove impurities, and it is a great deal stronger. The same goes for Steel. Using raw Iron ore when making Steel is plain stupid. If you're going to go through all the work of making Steel, you'd better use Iron that's as pure as you can make it.
Last edit: 8 years 8 months ago by Trifler.

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8 years 8 months ago - 8 years 8 months ago #459 by Havoc
Replied by Havoc on topic Mineral Cache Visibility
Agreed!
I particularly like the whole Refining deal. This is pretty much how EVE works (and the real world). You mine raw materials and refine them into other materials that are used to build things.

In Beyond Protocol, if we had, say, 10-30 raw minerals which total 30-60 refined minerals, each raw mineral could refine into 2-15 materials, with varying percents based on purity and refining research.

We could also use this system to simplify the builders a little (the following is an idea we discussed in beta and then again within DSE and refined by me!): Say there are particular resources for specific parts of a component, like a designated barrel material. There would be a handful of common raw minerals which refine out to most of the specific materials, but only in low percentages. More specialized raw materials contain higher quantities of say engine materials, or solid beam materials. There might also be three different quality barrel materials, and alloying a good barrel material with a decent engine housing material produces a poor radar collector material. The common raw minerals would contain poor refined materials, while the rare ones would have excellent materials.

This would prevent a player from creating uber fleets out of only two of the game's resources (which I commonly did). I would also think that reducing the number of mines on a planet, but increasing the quantities of those mines would be beneficial for the server and for competition. This would also encourage players to use certain techs based on what is available, instead of what everyone else is doing. If I'm in a system rich in projectile resources, it's going to be hard for me to produce beams.
Last edit: 8 years 8 months ago by Havoc.

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8 years 8 months ago #473 by Trifler
Replied by Trifler on topic Mineral Cache Visibility
I also want to add that I think the whole idea of planetary resources diminishing over time should be done away with. Much better to have resources remain, but require players to visit several planets in order to get any kind of large mineral variety.

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8 years 8 months ago #522 by Trifler
Replied by Trifler on topic Mineral Cache Visibility
I think we should consider changing the mineral caches into mineral fields that cover a small area and do away with the bidding system. Making it a mineral field would allow several players to build mines on any given field. It would also enable all three methods of mining mentioned above to work and be in the game. To recap:

Mine and Refine On-Site - This is essentially the existing method minus the bidding. It is the method used by the Lunar Corporation in Earth 2150. With this method, you build a single facility on the mineral field that is both a mine and a refinery in one. When powered it mines and then refines, so no other vehicles or facilities are required. The Production Rating of the facility is divided between mining and refining. I suggest this method be made to be even slower than that since no tranporting is involved.

Mine, Transport, Refine - This is the method Beyond Protocol used during the original DSE Beta. It is the method used by the Eurasian Dynasty in Earth 2150. With this method, you build a mining facility on the mineral field and you build a refining facility somewhere else. Vehicles are used to transport from the mine to the refinery.

Harvest and Refine - This is the traditional RTS method. It is the method used by the UCS in Earth 2150. With this method, you build a refining facility and use vehicles capable of mining from the mineral field and bringing it to the refinery.

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8 years 8 months ago #529 by Sokari
Replied by Sokari on topic Mineral Cache Visibility

Trifler wrote:
1) If Adam can fix the route bug so that routes work 100%, I'd actually prefer to go back to the gathering method at some point. I enjoyed designing harvesters and needing bay doors on the Mining Facilities, Refineries, etc. Designing a more efficient mining system really helped. Or, perhaps enable special mining vehicles that can stop and mine on their own without a Mining Facility. Like the UCS Harvesters in Earth 2150. Currently we have LC Mining Facilities. The traditional gathering method is the ED method. Maybe enable all three methods with pros and cons for each and let the players decide. Maybe they'll even use different methods depending on the planet, terrain, hostile situation, etc.

2) I think if we do away with alloys, as has been discussed, we could keep Refineries interesting by using them to refine specific minerals into various pre-determined resources. Basically, you take a mineral called X and you can refine it into Y (once you discover Y via research). Y is the *only* thing you can refine it into. Maybe some minerals would have two things they could turn into. Some might have none.


yes yes yes, a thousand times yes. The old system made far more sense also, the fact you had units flying about the map doing their own things gathering resources made your base far more interesting to look at sort of bringing it to live rather than having a whole mass of static buildings and nothing ever moving. Also, i like the idea of having a unit that can harvest without there been a mine on the node. It would be very handy for space stations and could allow for the implementation of asteroids so the mining station actually has some use.

As for mineral fields i'm not too sure. I like the idea of there been a single resource node so that if i cap it i've the rights to sell it or keep it as i see fit. with other players not having access to it, if they want it, they'll have to come take it otherwise i've got an advantage. Though that said, if you changed it to resource fields somewhat like those in mankind it could make things interesting when scouting for a new planet. but you'd get people like me going and capping the whole area of any nice minerals and getting a huge income from it :D lol.

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