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TOPIC: HomeWorld Tax

HomeWorld Tax 5 years, 5 months ago #442

  • Vimes
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Homeworld tax, as it stands, is a charge per colony outside of your home system. Averaging around -60k from the moment it sets up - what is the relationship between charge and colony size and is this the best method - or would an increasing charge per colony/system be better?
Last Edit: 5 years, 5 months ago by Vimes.

Re: HomeWorld Tax 5 years, 5 months ago #449

  • Trifler
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At this time I have no thoughts on what to do with Homeworld tax.

Re: HomeWorld Tax 5 years, 5 months ago #502

I never understood this Tax... it penalizes exploration..

It doesn't make sense either, because each colony is supposed to
be self sufficient....


There should be a one time setup fee, to establish a new colony which
should be the cost of materials etc...

The homeworld tax went away when your colony grew over 70,000...

AG

Re: HomeWorld Tax 5 years, 5 months ago #512

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The homeworld tax was implemented to prevent hyper-expansionism where some players (like me) built small cash colonies all over the known universe, everywhere they could reach, and get insanely rich.
Homeworld tax slows this down but does nothing to stop it.

The underlying problem is that if you build a cash colony you get an *income* while if you make some money making and selling a combat ship, you get a one time lump sum of money. Which means that if you wait long enough and the cash colony does not get destroyed, building cash colonies *always* gives more money for your efforts. Which basically kills trade except for newbies and roleplayers. It also leads to hyperinflation, where people have more billions than they know what to do with. Eventually they pay insane prices to the last remaining player who does offer something for trade, and after a such few deals the trader retires from the trading business as now he too has more money than he will ever use.

Mankind solved it by removing money income altogether and letting players earn money by selling minerals to an NPC trade base. This lead however to endless resource hauling to the NPC trade base, which was unpopular with players. So recently Mankind re-introduced some modest income from hi-tech cities, which are expensive to build and are limited to a maximum of 10 cities per player.

I`ve considered removing money from the game and let the buildings simply work for themselves, but wasn't satisfied with it. Also adding increasing economic penalties as you get further away from your main base, or adding extra penalties for every additional base is not a good solution as this discourages expansion and exploration. I've considered letting players not have one bank account, but multiple bank accounts, one per solar system, but that leads to other problems.

I don't have a good solution for this problem. Unless somebody has a good idea, I'd go for a combination of lowering income from bases, adding new ways to make money that give a large lump sum of money for effort rather than an unending income, decreasing the importance of money in the game (by placing more importance on the availability of rare minerals (*) ) , and a boost for newbies to speed up initial growth.

Giving newbies too much however will lead to multiple account abuse, where a player registers multiple acounts and sends the newbie bonus income to the main account. A partial way to solve this is to give players with the rank of Magistrate or Governer a discount on everything they buy (not giving extra money as this can be sent to another account).

(*) lowering the importance of money and increasing the importance of minerals: see the thread "re-designing BP" on the sourceforge forum.
sourceforge.net/projects/beyondprotocol/...4521560/index/page/3
the post made on 2011-11-15 16:05:54 PST

Re: HomeWorld Tax 5 years, 5 months ago #513

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Now that we are talking about income, I've never liked the current system.

In the current system, if you lower tax to zero you have high morale and thus high productivity from factories, mines and labs. If you tax the colony you get income but low productivity. It works, kinda, sorta, but it is also lame and unrealistic. Players are encouraged to build their cash colonies with labs, as this gives higher wages. But who is paying those wages and why?

Also to get the highest productivity, you need the highest morale, and for this you need 0% tax, 100% housing and 0% unemployment. However such a situation is not stable, it leads to population growth, which leads to lack of housing or jobs, which leads to lower morale, which leads to lower productivity. To get maximum research speed of labs, you should have 0% tax, 100% housing, 100% jobs (0% unemployment), and every few hours sell off the excess population from population growth to another player. This is tedious and illogical.

So lets think about this: how do capitalists in the modern world make money? They hire people, let them make consumer goods and then sell those consumer goods. The Capitalist makes sure that selling the products gives more money than hiring the people costs. He then keeps the difference.

Perhaps some kind of simple civilian economy should be introduced in BP. Aside from factories that produce military hardware, there should be buildings called manufactories that produce consumer goods. These consumer goods are never seen, they get sold for cash immediately.

Lets have a colony with mines, labs, factories, and manufactories.
if a player starts mining, researching or building military stuff, his population go to work with priority in their respective buildings. Whatever pop is left (not needed to man the labs, factories and mines) will work in the manufactories producing income. If the player does not use his labs, mines and factories, more population can work in the manufactories (but only if those manufactories actually exist in the colony) leading to more money income for the player.

All working population cost salary, but population working in manufactories give income.
By increasing the size of the population the salary per worker rises (bigger organizations need more managers) so the bigger the colony the more expensive it will be to produce there, aside from the extra costs of surpassing Facility Points (FPs). This encourages building multiple medium-sized colonies instead of one big colony.
Tax rate can be removed, morale (which only drops because of unemployment or lack of housing) is only needed for determining population growth or decline. If there are not enough manufactories (e.g. when the player is using too many facility points, or the manufactories are still under construction), A player can opt to pay unemployment benefits (welfare) to prevent population from leaving when he does not use his factories, his population leaving because there is no work.

The result is roughly the same as the current system but more realistic. By tweaking the link between salary level (pop does not like to live in an overcrowded city or nearly alone somewhere far away in space), and population size or colony location, the game masters can financially encourage or punish certain colony setups by players.
Last Edit: 5 years, 5 months ago by Desertfox.

Re: HomeWorld Tax 5 years, 5 months ago #518

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Desertfox wrote:

Perhaps some kind of simple civilian economy should be introduced in BP. Aside from factories that produce military hardware, there should be buildings called manufactories that produce consumer goods. These consumer goods are never seen, they get sold for cash immediately.

Lets have a colony with mines, labs, factories, and manufactories.
if a player starts mining, researching or building military stuff, his population go to work with priority in their respective buildings. Whatever pop is left (not needed to man the labs, factories and mines) will work in the manufactories producing income. If the player does not use his labs, mines and factories, more population can work in the manufactories (but only if those manufactories actually exist in the colony) leading to more money income for the player.

All working population cost salary, but population working in manufactories give income.
By increasing the size of the population the salary per worker rises (bigger organizations need more managers) so the bigger the colony the more expensive it will be to produce there, aside from the extra costs of surpassing Facility Points (FPs). This encourages building multiple medium-sized colonies instead of one big colony.
Tax rate can be removed, morale (which only drops because of unemployment or lack of housing) is only needed for determining population growth or decline. If there are not enough manufactories (e.g. when the player is using too many facility points, or the manufactories are still under construction), A player can opt to pay unemployment benefits (welfare) to prevent population from leaving when he does not use his factories, his population leaving because there is no work.

The result is roughly the same as the current system but more realistic. By tweaking the link between salary level (pop does not like to live in an overcrowded city or nearly alone somewhere far away in space), and population size or colony location, the game masters can financially encourage or punish certain colony setups by players.


I like the idea of replacing taxes with a facility that produces income. At least that way you have to make a tradeoff rather than just making money from everyone regardless of what they're doing.

Another possibility is the idea you mentioned about selling goods to an NPC trader, only instead of requiring the player to take the goods too the trader, just allow the player to sell to the NPC via the Tradepost.

If we wanted to expand on it, we could have a variety of consumer goods on a list with various properties that they like. Then allow the player to build a particular good using a particular mineral/material and have the price paid to the player go up with materials that more closely match the desired properties. Allow the manufacture of consumer goods with no minerals for the lowest income, as well as the manufacture of goods with minerals or materials for better income (vastly higher for a close or perfect match to the desired properties). You could imagine, for example, consumer car production.

Re: HomeWorld Tax 5 years, 5 months ago #534

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Expanding on this idea, perhaps make a rule that the owner of the planet gets 15% of all money production of other players on the same planet. This money is subtracted from the income of the non-owners of the planet and added to the owner's.

Aside from the normal rules of planet ownership, a player can build some kind of Planetary Government building that makes him the ruler. Only one Planetary Government Building can be built per planet and whoever owns it, is the undisputed ruler. If it gets destroyed the old rules of ownership apply until somebody else builds a Planetary Government Building.

The advantages are: allowing more than one player on "his" planet is beneficial for the ruler of the planet. This would be a protection against newbie bashing. It is also a choice between risk and reward. A strong player can opt to build a Planetary Government Building on a crowded planet and get the reward, but the other players on the planet will dislike him for stealing part of their income, so he also makes himself a target.

The disadvantage is that rich powerful players get even richer.

Possibly make the 15% income transfer dependent on the presence of such a Planetary Government Building. That means the players on a planet can opt for a more democratic rule where nobody is allowed to build a Planetary Government building and nobody loses income. Planetary Ownership still counts for determining rank but no income is transferred. An agreement can be made that anybody who does make a Planetary Government Building, will be attacked. Or a more feudal system where one player is allowed to build the Planetary Government Building in exchange for taking responsibility for the planet's defense or some other concession.
Last Edit: 5 years, 5 months ago by Desertfox.

Re: HomeWorld Tax 5 years, 5 months ago #538

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Desertfox wrote:
Expanding on this idea, perhaps make a rule that the owner of the planet gets 15% of all money production of other players on the same planet. This money is subtracted from the income of the non-owners of the planet and added to the owner's.

Aside from the normal rules of planet ownership, a player can build some kind of Planetary Government building that makes him the ruler. Only one Planetary Government Building can be built per planet and whoever owns it, is the undisputed ruler. If it gets destroyed the old rules of ownership apply until somebody else builds a Planetary Government Building.

The advantages are: allowing more than one player on "his" planet is beneficial for the ruler of the planet. This would be a protection against newbie bashing. It is also a choice between risk and reward. A strong player can opt to build a Planetary Government Building on a crowded planet and get the reward, but the other players on the planet will dislike him for stealing part of their income, so he also makes himself a target.

The disadvantage is that rich powerful players get even richer.

Possibly make the 15% income transfer dependent on the presence of such a Planetary Government Building. That means the players on a planet can opt for a more democratic rule where nobody is allowed to build a Planetary Government building and nobody loses income. Planetary Ownership still counts for determining rank but no income is transferred. An agreement can be made that anybody who does make a Planetary Government Building, will be attacked. Or a more feudal system where one player is allowed to build the Planetary Government Building in exchange for taking responsibility for the planet's defense or some other concession.


I'm inclined to say 10% rather than 15%.

Other than that, I think you could add a menu to the Planetary Government building and have some options in there for the various options you're suggesting. Perhaps the owner could decide specific players should be exempt or get a tax break. Or whatever else we come up with.

Re: HomeWorld Tax 5 years, 5 months ago #549

HomeWorld tax is just the tip of the iceberg of a much bigger problem.
Namely, the Economics of BP.

BP is striving to achieve realism in all aspects of space exploration and development and design yet the economics and taxes are much too simpistic.

First of all, why would we explore new worlds?
How would we populate them?
What unit of money would be universally accepted?
How would banks function in a Galactic system?
What form of energy would be used?

So, taxes don't make sense until we solve the central problem of BP and that is wealth!
What is wealth in an intergalactice economy?

Is it energy?
Is it minerals?
Is it people?
Is it production capacity?
Is it technology?
Is it gold?


What would be the unit of exchange for intergalactic commerce?
Would it be a FIAT currency or something more tangible such as Gold or Uranium?

Once the currency issue is solved, then we can talk about planetary economics.
Namely, how a planet is managed financially, such as a budge and taxes.

AG
The following user(s) said Thank You: Cyrusblack2

Re: HomeWorld Tax 5 years, 3 months ago #572

the solution to this problem, and several others... i have an idea...
CURRENT CONCEPT
lets say the following:
Lush 10 million Production
Adaptable 4 million
Dessert 2 million
Acidic 0
Lava 0
Arctic 0
Barren 0

Planets can produce Food, food is limited in maximum production rates, 1 food: 1 colonist, you must build farms to make food (food has a maximum cap based on planet type). you can store up food and sell it, or ship it or whatever, any excess can be directed using civilian convoys (so you dont have to get too involved with annoying logistics, just set how much you want to keep on a base, then ship the rest to other colonies automatically.

Howly Asscrackers, i just solved Overgrowth of population, Planet values, base spamming, and Economic inflation in one swoop. limits get instituted and planets now are worth fricken gold.

also, make all the other planets have super rare resources that you cant get elsewhere.
cut down totals to like 10-30 or something, severely cut back the amount and variety per planet (accept for the homeworld), make designs REQUIRE certain resources, then those planets that cant be self sustained, are needed for uber weapons and materials, that dessert planet has nequadria needed for Shields and pulse weapons... but joe blow owns that planet.....
Last Edit: 5 years, 3 months ago by Cyrusblack2.
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